ClergySpirit

Thanks for such a honest and insightful post. Alt...

2010-07-29T01:14:12.046-05:00

Thanks for such a honest and insightful post.

Although I agree that our goal if to "make disciples of all nations", I find that we aren't always very good at detailing what that really involves. Several times throughout the Gospels, Jesus warned us to "count the costs" before deciding to follow Him.

May churches like to paint a rosy, "prosperous" picture of discipleship, when in actuality it is often a painful, difficult and self-abasing journey. Much like the disciples who "gave up" in John 6:60-66, many modern would-be disciples decide that this whole discipleship path that they have set out on isn't quite what they bargained for whenever they realize for themselves what all is really entailed.

I do think that we should continue to strive to make disciples, but I think that many of us could do a better job of warning new Christians of the potential costs beforehand.

check out the British system with Superintendent M...

2010-06-28T11:48:03.644-05:00

check out the British system with Superintendent Ministers serving as clergy with regular preaching and sacraments, and supervising other ministers in the circuit. seems to work for them.

Thanks for the article. What is old is one of the ...

2010-06-07T19:06:08.714-05:00

Thanks for the article. What is old is one of the few things in this world that is relative. Sounds like a great place for ministry.

In my experience... People are NOT quitting “The C...

2010-06-06T10:20:08.965-05:00

In my experience...
People are NOT quitting “The Church of God” aka = “The Body of Christ.”
People are quitting the 501 (c) 3, non-profit, tax deductible, Religious Corporation.

Should we call a Corporation - “The Church of God?” AAARRRGGGHH!!! :-(

Doesn’t the Bible warn us about;
*The commandments of men?
*The doctrines of men?
*The philosophies of men?
*The traditions of men,
that make the Word of God of “non effect?”

Mark 7:13 KJV - Making the word of God of “none effect” through your tradition...
Mark 7:13 ASV - Making “void” the word of God by your tradition...
Mark 7:13 NIV - Thus you “nullify” the word of God by your tradition...

A simple word like “church.”
What do most people **Today** think that means.
Ask someone, believer or non-believer, to describe, explain or point to “church.”

1 - Building with a steeple? --- Is that in the Bible?

2 - Pastor - in a Pulpit - Preaching - to People - in Pews? --- Is that in the Bible?

That’s what the world thinks, the believer and the unbeliever, isn’t it?

Isn’t that what our so called “Church planting” has accomplished
with four buildings on four corners in a lot of local towns?
And passing the plate at every meeting?

Haven't we deceived the people we’re supposed to be reaching out to?

How many will know and understand that they can
become “the ekklesia of God.” The called out one’s of God.

How many will know that “The Church of God”
“The ekklesia, the called out one’s of God” are;

Kings and preist’s unto God.
The Bride of Christ.
Servants of Christ.
Sons of God.
Disciples of Christ.
Ambassadors of Christ.

Haven’t we deceived them by telling them the building is the church?
And we have to give money to God so He can keep His building in good order?

When all the time “you are” the ekklesia of God.
The habitation of God. The house of God.
God doesn’t dwell in temples built with the hands of men.

Haven’t they missed the awesomeness of God,
The beauty of “His Church,” “His Body.” How we all become “ONE” in Him?

Neither bond nor free, neither male nor female,
Neither Emergent nor Traditional nor Pentecostal nor Baptist.
Neither Complementarinism nor Egalitarianism.
Neither Denominationalism nor Non- denominationalism.
All obeying Jesus. All following and learning from Jesus, as “ONE” new man.

Jesus... My Lord and my God...

I think Wilimon has his conference staff all servi...

2010-06-04T20:27:51.148-05:00

I think Wilimon has his conference staff all serving in local congregations, and I believe West Ohio has some DS's who also serve in a local church capacity, so there is certainly some precedent.

Thanks for the comment! Bishops and cabinets wil...

2010-06-02T17:55:02.215-05:00

Thanks for the comment!

Bishops and cabinets will only farm training or mentoring for making disciples out to others. That's what we already have. For hierarchies to actually do this the GC will need to REQUIRE it in job descriptions. It has to be a Disciplinary expectation and not just a voluntary thing.

To start with, why not free cabinets from having to tote a pre-2000 structure filled with general board and agency responsibilities? Then, have all Bi-Annual Conferences instead of annual AND more often only as called or needed (like for ordinations).

I don't think a bishop or district superintendent ...

2010-06-01T19:33:50.198-05:00

I don't think a bishop or district superintendent would have the time to pastor a church while doing their other duties. But they could help to turn around a church by becoming a mentor/trainer.

Thanks for the post. I'll check those websites out...

2010-05-24T12:25:17.667-05:00

Thanks for the post. I'll check those websites out too.

It seems that what really counts is not that a certain word is or is not in the Bible, but how it's used. You maintain it was about the role or gift, not the title.

But we can take anything and use it to hurt. Throw away any and all titles, and, in my opinion, we can still use Bible, church, Jesus, faith to do harm.

For example, I've seen people use the servant tag to manipulate and shame others, just, as you say, "leader" has been used to do the same.

Thanks again- and peace to you!

Scott Yes, elders, bishops and deacons are in the...

2010-05-24T10:15:33.992-05:00

Scott

Yes, elders, bishops and deacons are in the scriptures.
BUT, they all called themselves servants.
None called themselves leaders.

I don't believe it's about doing away with the offices we've invented.

Jesus didn't do away with "The Corrupt Religious System" of His day.
And He didn't "reform" "The Corrupt Religious System.
It still exists today. Yes?

Jesus left the "system" He was the originator of.
And called others out - into a relationship - with Jesus.

The “word” pastor/shephered/teacher, and what they do,
is also in the Bible, Eph 4:11-12.

BUT, most of what a Paid, Professional, Pastor does **Today**
is NOT in the Bible. Seems we've "added" a few things. Yes?

NO ONE in the Bible had the “Title” or “Position” of "Pastor/Leader."

Can you name **one** person, in the Bible,
who was called “Pastor/Leader?”

Can you name **one** congregation,
in the Bible, “Led” by a Pastor?

I have seen the dangers of "Titles," and “Position”
of **Today’s** "Pastor/Leader."
“Spiritual Abuse” for both the "leader" and those “being led.”
IMO - The “Title” “Pastor/Leader” is very, very, dangerous for both.

In my experience...
No matter how loving, eventually...
No matter how humble, eventually...
No matter how much of a servant, eventually...

Pastor/Leader = exercise authority = lord it over = abuse = always

I'm not not new to "ministering healing"
to those who have been “Abused”
by those who took the “Title” and “Position”- “Pastor/Leader."

Folks who've been **burnt,** ** burnt out,** ** kicked out,**
and **crawled out** of "the religious system" most call “church.”
with it's leaders, submission to authority, tithes and offerings,
and other unbiblical "heavy weights" put on folks shoulders.

I also spend time with pastors,
"so called leaders," who can't do it anymore.

Trying to please the denominational leaders,
the congregation and it's leaders, his family,
and of course Jesus.
Who is often relegated to last place. Hmmm?

Searving so many masters, that's tough; Yes?

Preaching every week... and it better be good, being the CEO,
the team leader, councilor, marrying, burying, smiley face. etc. etc.

If **Today’s** "Pastor/Leader." (as we see them today) are of God?
He's not taking very good care of His gift to us, "pastor/teacher"; Is He?

This is info from a websites helping burned out Pastors.

http://pastoralcareinc.com/WhyPastoralCare/Statistics.php

• 77% say they do “not” have a good marriage.
• 71% have felt burned out or depressed.
• 70% do not have someone they consider a close friend.
• 38% are divorced or seriously considering divorce.
• Over 1600 pastors in the U.S. are forced out of their positions each month.

http://www.pastorcare.org/PastorCare/Healing___Health.html

# 80% of pastors' spouses wish they would choose a different profession.
# 80% believe pastoral ministry has negatively affected their families.
..............Many pastor's children do not attend church now
...............because of what the church has done to their parents.
# 33% state that being in the ministry is an outright hazard to their family.

This is serious business. Yes?

Think there might be a problem with **Today’s** "Pastor/Leader?"

What is popular is not always “Truth.”
What is “Truth” is not always popular.

Peace...

Thanks for your comment! I generally agree with ...

2010-05-19T16:44:40.223-05:00

Thanks for your comment!

I generally agree with your comments about titles. Keep in mind that most churches will say that "elder" or "bishop" or "deacon" are all in the New Testament Letters.

Do you really think that if we did away with such offices that Christian care-givers would not be as vulnerable to burning out?

I think the book was more about how beliefs and pr...

2010-05-19T16:33:06.539-05:00

I think the book was more about how beliefs and practices affect brain health. It didn't try to prove God or say that the benefits are chemical only, because there was a real emphasis on practicing non-violent communication and serenity in relationships.

So, does the book say that God and the benefits of...

2010-05-19T14:21:28.771-05:00

So, does the book say that God and the benefits of faith are reduced to brain chemistry? Or does the book suggest that our brains simply enjoy a real God?

Hmmm? Senior Pastor? Leader? Is that in the Bible...

2010-05-15T14:58:04.789-05:00

Hmmm? Senior Pastor? Leader?

Is that in the Bible?

Is it possible the reason "Burnout" is such
a problem for today's "Pastor/Leader" is
they have found themselves with a
"Title" and "Position" NOT found in the Bible?

Did anyone have the “Title” “pastor” in the Bible?
Was anyone ordained a “pastor” in the Bible?
Any congregations "led" by a “pastor” in the Bible?

And every “pastor” I’ve met also had
the “Title” “Reverend.”

Does anyone have the “Title” Reverend in the Bible?

In my experience...

Titles become Idols.
Pastors become Masters.

Heavy weights on shoulders NOT easy to lay down.

Jesus taught “His Disciples”
NOT to be called “Master/Leader”
For you have “ONE” “Master/Leader” The Christ.
Mat 23:8-10 KJV

Ezekiel 14:1-7, speaks about "Idols of the Heart,"
and now God will speak to us according to
the "Idols of our Heart."

And other sheep I have,
which are not of this fold:
them also I must bring,
and they shall “hear my voice;”
and there shall be "ONE" fold,
and "ONE" shepherd.
John 10:16

One Fold - One Shepherd - One Voice.
If Not Now, When?

Be blessed in your search for Truth... Jesus.

We live in a fallen world. God has a permissive w...

2010-03-29T19:56:28.205-05:00

We live in a fallen world. God has a permissive will on this earth, otherwise it wouldn't be creatively and wonderfully made. If it weren't for trials and temptations, there would be no need for a belief in God and therefore we would be totally out of luck. Remember, we're not in the garden of Eden anymore.

I pray with you.... Fervently All's grace, Ann

2010-03-23T06:36:46.351-05:00

I pray with you....
Fervently

All's grace,
Ann

Thanks for sharing this prayer.

2010-03-21T16:52:51.241-05:00

Thanks for sharing this prayer.

All faces are but the mask of God, yes? A lovely ...

2010-02-23T15:15:10.423-06:00

All faces are but the mask of God, yes?

A lovely reflection.

Thank you.

All's grace,
Ann

Yes, we enjoy perfect freedom today, freedom of th...

2009-11-25T10:37:12.304-06:00

Yes, we enjoy perfect freedom today, freedom of the corporations, by the corporations, and for the corporations. When it's about saving and protecting corporate and supper rich profits, it's called freedom; when it's about a better future and economic security for all, it's called socialism, or nationalization.

I agree it's about control and power- it always is. The question is, who is it benefiting, or better, how many more does the reform benefit. Is it done for the common good, not just for a few.

Maybe your proposal will find a way into the reforms being discussed.

Would you then do away with Medicare (nationalized health care)? If not, what would you do to fix it?

With respect, words are tools for communication. E...

2009-11-25T07:20:07.116-06:00

With respect, words are tools for communication. Especially when dealing with something so toxic as the subject at hand, words such as "nationalizing" are helpful to identify the precise nature of that poisonous concoction that brewed in a backroom is packaged and sold to the public as "healthcare."

When the German army marched into Eastern Russia they were greeted as liberators by those who had suffered under the outrages of Stalin. Later came the bitter realization that those whose jackboots echoed through villages’ streets were not liberators but conquers bringing not freedom but bondage. A similar threat is posed to our nation by those who would destroy our economic and personal freedom to realize their socialist agenda. To pretend otherwise is as much an act of fantasy as to pretend that abortion is not about killing.

If this were only a matter of simple financial transparency in making healthcare accessible, an immediate equitable and economical solution would be to use Dept. of Health funds to subsidize uninsured citizens that they might purchase that level of healthcare which they consider appropriate. But of course the issue is not healthcare. The issue is political power and control. The issue is the ongoing effort of those who would use publicly financed healthcare as a tool by which to buy votes and build a political fiefdom. The issue is the ultimate consequence of such action which would be our transformation from citizens on whose behalf elected official govern to subjects over whom politicians rule. It is to high a price to pay that for nationalized healthcare our personal freedom and independence should be traded off for a bowl of thin hope wrapped in the gauze of cheap promises offered by those who are nothing less than paragons of deceit and dishonesty.

There you go again with the "nationalizing" word. ...

2009-11-24T10:31:26.682-06:00

There you go again with the "nationalizing" word. There's no nationalizing going on. As I understand it, choice is being discussed. Just the thing that any monopoly with obscene profits hates.

Maybe you’ve been listening to Lou Dobbs too long, because for him, illegals explain all our problems. Do you really think that those without a doctor are all illegals? Can anyone really be treated with no insurance? Are you saying that the American citizens who need a doctor and can't get one don't matter? But you and I pay for them already! So in the name of saving a buck, wouldn't you rather have these costs transparent rather than a hidden part of your bill?

To me social responsibility is why achieving health care reform matters in 2009. Yes, freedom is a great gift, but freedom with no responsibility to our neighbor is not freedom.

Congressman Culberson is to be commended for actin...

2009-11-24T08:16:28.480-06:00

Congressman Culberson is to be commended for acting to expose the truth about efforts to nationalize healthcare in the United States. At issue is not the mythical 40 million "uninsured" for that is the meaningless product of political theater. The mythology is debunked as one extracts from that invention those who are illegal aliens, those who do not choose to spend their money on health insurance, those who choose to pay for their own care. Apart from emotional exaggeration, the arguement for nationalizing healthcare in the United States is without merit. At heart, this effort only reflects an agenda of shaping our nation into a socialist construct that is toxic to that personal freedom and independence that are the foundation and genius of America.

The cost of stopping this effort to nationalize healthcare in the United States are great. Those cost are necessary to speak out effectively in the face of efforts by those who seek to eliminate the current system of private healthcare to substitute a system funded by increased taxes saddled on the backs of wage earners. The patent dishonesty of explanations that pretend that only the "rich" will pay higher taxes is a tissue of deceit that only persuades those who willfully choose to believe that everyone can have something for nothing.

There is always a price to pay for freedom and independence, even when that freedom and independence is threatened by those who would use the mechanism of a expansive federal government to confiscate and redistribute personal property in the name of public good. The cost of stopping this threat to our nation is great. But far greater would be the cost of standing by and allowing narrowly drawn politically driven interest groups to seize control of a major portion of the national economy.

Thanks for the day and the comment. Yes, I read th...

2009-11-15T08:59:54.494-06:00

Thanks for the day and the comment. Yes, I read the "commitment to Jesus Christ" as "born again" and corrected the error.

Hi, George Barna here... I'd like to make a few co...

2009-11-14T13:21:25.287-06:00

Hi, George Barna here... I'd like to make a few corrections regarding what you have reported that I said.

"Marketing obviously only goes so far, but phone calls and home visits (with or without gifts) are invasive and manipulative." Actually, I indicated that the unchurched view telemarketing and home visits as manipulative. I was not making a judgment as to whether every instance of these efforts is, in fact invasive and manipulative.

"The best chance of reaching this group is through a friend who not only invites them, but also, offers to take them." For the sake of clarity, I did not say you have to take them, literally, but they would be more likely to attend if you meet them there (or take them).

"For example, over 50% see worship as the one thing churches offer of value; the problem is, there's such a gap between worship and anything else seen of value. Barna said "Congratulations, we got at least one thing right." But to make advances, we could also be perceived as offering value other than worship." Actually, what I said was that most unchurched people (51%) listed worship services as the event or activity through which they were most likely to reconnect with a church, but that's mostly because they don't know what else to say. Because more than 4 out of 5 of them are formerly churched, worship services are a "been there, done that" experience for most of them, and are not especially effective at attracting or reconnecting with this audience. We are actually more likely to reconnect with them through other means that address their felt needs.

"Many of the non-attending Christians were born again (78%)" This is not at all accurate. The 78% are not "born again," but are people who say they have made a personal commitment to Jesus Christ that is still important in their life today." That's one facet of being born again, but it is certainly not the way in which we measure being "born again" through our surveys. Nationally between 15-20% of the unchurched are typically born again Christians, and I suspect the figure (which, as explained during the presnetation, was something we did not measure in this study) in Houston is perhaps slightly higher than that.

I think that's what Paul means in Philippians 4:13...

2009-11-09T12:04:00.763-06:00

I think that's what Paul means in Philippians 4:13:
"Christ gives me the strength to face anything."
CEV

However, I believe that Philippians 4:13 is not even close to saying that God dishes trouble out to us for any reason- good, bad or indifferent.

It's refreshing to hear the Truth !! I am amazed a...

2009-11-07T06:15:32.472-06:00

It's refreshing to hear the Truth !!
I am amazed at how people come to a point of belief that 'God will not give me anything I cannot handle'. What did Paul mean then when he said "...above measure" or "I despaired of life".
He gives us MORE than we can handle to take us beyond ourselves. It's a lifelong process and cannot be done with limits ('what we can handle').